The Courage to Question, Change and Reinvent Yourself

Why Midlife Changes Everything

It's very different when you're my age at this point. You really don't care what everybody else is thinking, or you know, it becomes so different. I am so different than I was when I was younger. And some of the basics are still there, you know, and some of the gifts, and I'm watching how they can grow and and where I need to lean into to learn more.

So I'm super excited to have you on the podcast. I'm really looking forward to you sharing your wisdom with us because I know that you've got a lot of it to share. Um but as you know, the the podcast is uh this podcast is called the Midlife Rebel Podcast, and we're really exploring all of those things to do with midlife. And you had a big experience, which some of us do in midlife. Um so I guess we could I I thought it would probably be a good idea to kick off there, even though you've had like an entire lifetime since that happened, probably. Um, but yeah, would you would you be able to start us off there?

Sure.

A Life Under Obedience

I love to share my story. It's quite interesting in midlife. I used to call myself the midlife mentor, and then I got much older and I kind of went away from that. But um when I was 17 years old, so we'll go back just a bit, I entered a Catholic convent. And at that time, many, many years ago, people did those kinds of things younger. So it wasn't so amazing. But I stayed for 16 years. So I was 33 when I left. I mean, we're talking right in the heart of midlife here. And what I realized, which was so powerful, and and I didn't realize it till many years later, that I was living under a vow of obedience. And obedience tells you how what to eat, where to how to dress, what kind of work you're gonna do. You made no decisions on your own. And so I thought that was the way to be holy, you know, if I just do it, I'm told. And I love the life. I just want to underlying saying, you know, I have no regrets having done that. But one thing that I did discover is that I had shut down my own voice. So when I came out in midlife, and you know, everybody has their version of coming out, but I was when I left the convent in at 33, I didn't know who I was. And I didn't know, I didn't know. I mean, I was trying to furnish an apartment. I don't know what kind of sofa I wanted, what color should the walls be? I had no clue of what my own desires even were. And so it's been years of discovering that and discovering what I'm now calling, you see my little background, the inner compass. It's like, who, what is my voice saying? What is my knowing telling me to do? Uh, it nobody meant it to shut down. I don't think that's the intention, but that's what happened to me. And so I had to gradually learn how to open to that voice. And I think that's really parallel to a midlife crisis because many people live like one life when they're younger and then say, wait a minute, my children are gone or they're leaving soon. Who am I? Or I've been in this job that I hate, you know. How do I reinvent myself? And and I'm a master at reinvention. So if I can share anything, I would be happy to. But I've reinvented myself so many times over the years. I'm part of it I was reinventing because I didn't even know who I was. But um hopefully that's not what everybody else's experience is. But I think that it's the reason that I said yes to being on this is that I really do think I have something to say to people in midlife and and hang in because it's the other side of it is really exciting.

Yeah, wow. What a story. And yeah, there can be some major turning points. That's almost like I I feel like I'm it I'm 52, so you know, I'm kind of just over that, you know, 40-year-old midlife crisis thing, but still very feel like I'm in the thick of it. Um, but it's like you'd have different completely different lives, isn't it? It's like many lifetimes within one lifetime when you were talking about reinvention. It's like you're the same person, but you've done many different things, or you felt you feel the same but different. It's kind of a bit of a paradox. Do you feel like oh I'd love to hear more about like how you came to the decision to leave and change? Um because that would have been huge. How did you know that this wasn't for you anymore?

I can I can share a funny story because I was, I I guess I was I didn't even know I was struggling, but something in me was not feeling totally together. And I we had a speaker come to the convent, and I don't even remember what her topic was, but I really like honed into every word she was saying, and she was a therapist. So I asked if I could go see this therapist, uh, and she became my lifeline. And when I went to her, she used to say to me, When you leave, I wouldn't even talk about that. I was not intending to leave. Don't talk to me about leaving. And then one day, and this is really how it happened, I walked into her office and said, When I leave, and she said, Wait a minute, when did you decide? And truthfully, I don't even know. That's gonna sound very strange, but I think it was a gradual thing. And now looking back to it, I can actually tell you a story that I think was a turning point. It didn't happen

Breaking Rules To Follow Heart

just before I left, but I think it was what turned me. And it was it's gonna sound weird, but we had a rule called grand silence. And the grand silence was late at night, and late at night could have been eight o'clock. I don't even remember what time. You were not allowed, not only not to speak, you couldn't even look at another person. You were supposed to be in very deep silence. And one night I heard the woman next door crying. Now, I was a sister of divine compassion. Okay. My heart said, You can't let her cry. I don't care if it's grand silence. So I went to her room and comforted her. I talked with her. I don't remember exactly. I just remember when I left, she was somewhat comforted. And I went to bed and I woke up the next morning thinking, Oh my God, you broke a major rule and you didn't die. It was amazing. And I really think that that's when I began saying, wait a minute, I followed my heart. I followed what I really believed I needed to do, and it broke a rule. Maybe there's a bigger rule here, and maybe there's something I'm missing. And I don't think I was conscious of that at that time, but it was years later looking back at like why did I leave? And the other thing, during that time, and uh, I just turned 80. I'm gonna say that.

Congratulations, I reckon that's so cool.

I don't even have gray hair yet. It's pretty amazing, but it's like so amazing. But you know, I I look back and during that time there was a whole lot in the Catholic Church around abortion and women's rights to their body. And even though it wasn't an issue that affected me directly, it affected me. And I knew that I couldn't stand for a church that I no longer believed was making the right rules. So I think there was a piece of that that was going on, and that was a hard one because, like, why is it bothering me? I'm not, you know, I'm not here even thinking about having children or anything, but it was, it really bothered me at the time. And so I think it was a mixture of things happening, but it was recognizing that I didn't always agree with what was going on, and maybe I needed to listen to that inner voice, you know, and I don't want to make everything they were doing wrong, it was just not everything that I was being led to at the time. And I think that's really a key thing for people in midlife to stop and say, What do I believe? I remember one of the stories that's coming to me right now. I love when I do podcasts, all these things come to my mind, and I don't prepare anything. I'm always amazed at what shows up. But um I was in the middle, I used to belong to something called the Catholic charismatic movement, and where you prayed in tongues and people would gather together and prophesy. I mean, beautiful, beautiful experiences. And I was at a convention in Notre Dame, Indiana, which was a huge stadium, thousands of people praying in tongues. And if you've ever heard it, it is beautiful, and it is it just lifts your whole spirit. It's amazing. And I remember being lifted into that, and it was like an emotional movement. And I remember listening to the speakers and saying, Am I just caught up in the emotion, or do I believe this? That was another turning point for me. And yes, I believed a lot of it, and yes, I was caught up in the emotion. So it was a little bit of just to like hold back, who am I? What do I agree with? What do I believe? I'm working with a good friend of mine right now who's struggling about what church she belongs to. And I never read the book, but there's a book called A Religion of One's Own. And I always say to her, read that, because it's like, what do you believe? You don't have to be Buddhist or Christian or Muslim, or you can be a little bit of all of it if you want. And um, that's a little controversial to say for some people, but it's like, who what do you believe? Go within and find what you believe, and and that's when you'll be happiest. That's really amazing.

Excuse me. I love that, and I absolutely agree that that's uh when I called the podcast the midlife rebel, it was for that very reason. It's not like you know, shouting down the houses necessarily and and you know, saying, No, I'm not this is not who I am. However, that might be how we're feeling. But it's that yeah, it's it's that coming to a point where things don't quite feel right. And like, am I just fitting into a box that someone else has created for me, or is this my truth? That's really what this podcast is all about. And um yeah, midlife just kind of seems to magnify it, doesn't it?

It does. It's a somehow a time of life where you start saying you first of all, one of the gifts of midlife is you stop caring what everybody thinks as much, you know, but something happens magically that says, you know, that's not as important to me anymore. But then what is important, and I'm not sure where do I fit, where do I belong? Um, what do I think? And it's uh it's challenging to, especially when you've been raised in a particular way. I mean, in my case, in the Catholic Church and in the um convent of all things, it was just so much stronger of this is how you

The Enneagram And Self-Knowledge

believe. And there one of the things that I teach is something called the Enneagram. Are you familiar with the Enneagram? No, no, I was I was hoping you'd talk about that. Okay, well, that's uh again, I don't always talk about that on these podcasts, but the Enneagram is an important part of my life and my work. And that most people, if you look up the Enneagram, you know, uh you're gonna find most people think of it as a personality typing system. Okay, there are nine different types. Even that alone, when I realized I was one of the types, meant I was missing the other eight. You know, they had qualities and they saw things that I don't see. I always thought people should see things the way I do, and but it helped me to see why I see things the way I do. For example, I'm an Aneagram Seven. Sevens are the Paliannas of the world, if you will. We're the cockeyed optimists, we bring joy and enthusiasm everywhere we go. I love being that. However, we also are blind to any problems, do not like pain and do not want to see anything going wrong. And I never understood when people looked at all their issues and, like, you know, get over it. I didn't have the kind of compassion I needed. And now I get to work at as a coach, I get to work with the opposite types who I I honor the way they see the world. In fact, I run to my sixes because sixes always are looking for what shoe's gonna drop next. And so I'm blinded, I don't see what could go wrong. So if I'm trying to make a decision, I want somebody who can say, hey, have you thought of this, this, and this, these things could go wrong. It's so helpful to me. Or I can go to someone, you know, each of the different types, every one of the types, uh, kind of they use the word fixated in anyagram language. It's a strong word, but it's like I think it really helps in midlife to say, wait a minute, I've been acting out of a pattern that I've developed as an ego child. Yeah. And maybe that's not truly my gift. You know, so it can be, I think, for people to learn the Enneagram, uh, go beyond learning just the basics. I actually did a 14-month training to become certified and you know, learning, and I constantly and taking classes to deepen it, it's a whole like how do I grow spiritually based on the fact that, okay, I'm a natural seven, I'm always gonna be that. It's not gonna change. However, as a growing adult, I want to learn all the other qualities. I want to, and part of a seven wants to be it all anyway. So I want to learn every bit that I can learn from other people. But it's so helpful for someone saying, Who am I? Because you get to see, you know, the pattern that you've been living out. It's like the the patterns are created. We're born with a temperament, but we create a particular ego structure based on our childhood and what's happened to us.

How do you determine what number you are? Is it through like I I study astrology and the gene keys uh for similar reasons? You know, it's like, am I actually living into this person? Or or am I, you know, is where's the conditioning showing up and that sort of thing? That's done with date of birth, place of birth, time of birth. How do you do it with the Enneogram? I can't see that because of your screen, because of your background. I can't see the thing you're looking at.

Anyway, it's my astrological chart that somebody just did. Okay. Kind of funny. But um, well, there are a couple of things. Many people, there are lots of tests you can take to see your type, and I don't recommend them, at least not in the beginning. I recommend that people take a course just to learn about the types and to explore in your life. And many people mistype themselves. I have a course on on my website. I can tell you about it a little bit later. I give it away for free, just so people can can take a look and say, for example, there is a type that many women think they are. It's the type two, which is the unconditional giver. The two is the one that takes care of everybody else's needs. In fact, they can see your need before you even see it, and they can manipulate you to take care of your needs. I mean, it all of these types have a challenge as well as a gift. When they're pure and when they learn how to deal with that, they're the most unconditionally loving. But many women think they're supposed to be twos. So that's very helpful to take a look at the anneagram asks your motivation. Like we all have a lot of the actions from every type. If I told you what all nine of them were, you say, Yeah, I'm that, I'm that, I'm that, you know. However, it's like looking at the deepest motivation. And for the two, the motivation is I'm the one that has to love the world. I'm the one that has to take care of everybody. They probably came from a family where their parents were not there. On some level, they had to take care of parents, they had to take care of siblings or whatever may have happened. So they developed that as their type. Doesn't mean that they're not loving, they're not caring. They probably are, but their growth is about taking care of themselves and taking care of their own needs, you know. But it may not be, it's not every woman. And then there are women who can be an eight. Eights are the least vulnerable, the strongest. They when an eight walks in the room, you know they're there. They have vitality and presence. And so if you're an eight, you may feel like that's not a very feminine quality. Like, what's wrong with me? I don't look like other women. You know, so there's so much you can learn about yourself. Um, I don't want to turn this into an anneagram class, but or or maybe I do because I love the topic. Um, but it's so helpful to even just look at the number. And then just to complicate the issues, we all have what they call wings. It's the numbers on either side of us. And then we have a stress point, is the number we go to when we're stressed. And then we have an integration point, the number we go to when we're healthier. And then there are nine levels of health that you can. So you can be a two at the lowest level, which is, you know, no concern for yourself and constantly out there, or you can be a very healthy two that's out there giving to the world, you know. So so there's a lot more to it. But just even knowing the basics, I think, is a way for someone saying, Who am I? Like, which of me is my ego and which is my essence? What have I been called here to be? You know?

Yeah. And that's quite a process, isn't it? It's not, I mean, there's there's I feel like the same with astrology, you know, you look at your chart and you kind of know there's a knowing that that's who you are. And it sounds like with the Enneagram, you know, like when you read that number, you feel it. But whether you're living into it straight away, um, you know, depending on all of the other stuff that's going on, like what will other people think of me if I'm this person or if I'm not this person, you know, if I'm well, especially when you were mentioning the number two, the you know, the caregiver, which many women fall into. What will people think if I am not doing that anymore? So there's a process in becoming your true self, isn't there?

Exactly. I know when I became when I left the convent, it was a while later that I actually became an ordained minister and I'm minister in a new thought organization. And I remember thinking, what's wrong with me? I should be a two if I'm gonna be a minister. And you know, it's like, no, that's not, it's not at all my strength. And uh some of the other things are, you know, and then then there are threes who are into success and they give up their life to be successful. And I know a lot of women like that. It's like, and they usually in midlife say, wait a minute, what does success really mean? You know, because success is often what the other person tells you to be, and threes are chameleons, they can become whatever is needed in a situation, so it's like they get to say, hmm, maybe that's not really what I want anymore. Who am I? What is what I want? And you know, I think it's a great process of reflecting and and really, you know, they used to talk about the two stages of life. Now they're talking about three or four because you know, people are living long. So it's uh It's very different when you're my age at this point. You really don't care what everybody else is thinking, or, you know, it becomes so different. I am so different than I was when I was younger. And some of the basics are still there, you know, and some of the gifts. And I'm watching how they can grow and and where I need to lean into to learn more.

I'd love to talk to you more about that. Um, but before we do, I want to go back again into uh when you when you first came

Reinvention After Leaving The Convent

out of um the convent, was it convent? Yeah. And you would you mentioned, you know, you didn't didn't know who you were, what what you liked, um, what to do. How did you start?

Well, interestingly enough, I remember going to the library and saying, What job could I get? Now, one of the things I did in the convent, being a good girl, I wanted to be an English major. And so I got to go to college in the convent. And the day that we were to pick our majors, our superior walked in and said, if you're good in math or science, we need you to be a math or science major. All right, you need me, I can do that. I was good in math. I didn't want to be a math major, I became a math major. I went all the way to a almost to a doctorate in math. And that's another whole story. We don't go there right now, but you know, I got a master's degree in math, and I said, enough, because this is not really who I am anymore. But when I left having a math degree, I went to the library and looked up what kind of jobs you get. And at that time, computers were pretty new. I mean, we didn't have cell phones and all those other things at the time. And I decided, ah, I could be a computer programmer. And so it totally didn't fit me, Nadine. I should never have. Anyway, I went and applied and got a job at ATT. And I was one of the highest paid new members because I had a master's degree in math. You know, it was amazing. And I worked for years as a programmer analyst in a cubicle. You know, you know me five minutes, and you know that doesn't fit. But anyway, I went from there to actually a company that sold software and I became a trainer for them. And I trained, eventually trained all their trainers, which was more fitting. And then I left and started my own business because I'm too much of a free spirit to work for anybody else. But it was, but that's what I did. The first thing I did um church-wise, I struggled because I had a divinity degree, which is what the priests get. And some of the priests don't even have that further degree. So I was a threat in every church that I went into. I'd offer to help out on something and they would be frightened of me. It was, I don't know, I don't think I'm a frightening personality, but it was, it was a very challenging time to find where I belonged, which eventually led me to leave the Catholic Church. I couldn't find a home there anymore. And so I eventually went into New Thought Community and Unity and Religious Science and became a minister in that uh because they accepted women. I mean, the reason I went in the convent in the first place is because I wanted to be a priest and you couldn't, you know. So it was it was like constantly looking at what where do I belong? What do I need to be doing? But the programming part, I'm now grateful because I'm a really whiz at the computer. I'm not afraid to do things, and I run an online program. I I'm on computers all day long. And like one of the messages that I give to people all the time is nothing's ever wasted. We think like, why did that happen? Life happens for us, not to us. Everything happening in our life has a place. You may not see it immediately, but boy am I grateful for everything that I've been through. You know, each of those things that if you look at it, my life looks like a checkerboard. I went from this to this to this to, you know, and every piece of that is making sense now. It fits, it's amazing.

I'm really curious. Um, this is kind of a little bit off topic, but I'm being nosy. Do when you

Dating After A Sheltered Life

do you have a are you in relationship?

Did you No, I'm not I'm not, and that's an interesting thing because you when you said leaving the convent, I was thinking I remembered my dating life at the time. Okay, which I dated all the wrong men. Was that weird, like to start dating? I you know, it was a time I didn't even know who the Beatles were. How can you have a conversation with anybody? It was a really challenging time. And so I went out with anybody who asked me, and uh, all the wrong men asked me. I mean, I was proposed to by one man who there's no way we should have been together. He um he was a semi-pro football player who would not take me to a football game because he didn't think I'd like it, which was crazy. And I love the theater. We went, I lived in New York at the time, we went to every Broadway play on the opening, and we also went out to the finest dinners. He whined and dined me and took me to the nicest places, but we had no communication, we had nothing in common. Uh, you know, if I wanted to be entertained for the rest of my life, it would have been wonderful. But, you know, and so that was very challenging. And when I left, I one of the one of the things that happened is that I was an associate pastor in a church, which was also unheard of. And the people in that parish were very healthy marriages, and I left wanting to be married, I thought. And but I didn't have the equipment or the know-how to do it. And then I just got involved in running businesses and doing things, and it never became a priority. I'm still open. I mean, at this point, it would be fun to find the right partner, but I also, you know, have been pretty self-sufficient, but love men and love women too. I mean, women are wonderful, but it's um it hasn't been, and it's one of those things that I've looked at and and wonder about like, why, why did that never happen? But I've never focused on it. Yeah, and until you focus on something, that's never gonna happen.

So yeah, thank you. Thank you for answering that.

Yeah, that was a it was a very challenging time of my life. I would expect it. A couple of years. I mean, they every date was like oh painful, you know, weird, yeah, awkward. Very awkward, very weird, and you know, um, all the learning was uh real challenging. I don't wish that on anyone, but but it's awkward for most women too. So not quite as awkward when I had nothing to talk about. I mean, I wasn't gonna talk about my days in the convent. What do you talk about? It was very interesting.

Uh thank you for sharing that. So you're now a coach. So we're I'm fast forwarding now. Um you've been doing this

Building The Inner Compass Method

for a long time. So you did your computer programming, um, started your own business. So have you been coaching for a long time?

Well, when from the computer programming, and then I mentioned the churches, I actually became an ordained minister and ran churches for a number of years.

Okay.

And I was a pastor of uh a couple of different churches uh for a number of years, and and so you become a coach as a minister, you can't help it because that's it. A lot of the work that I was doing, I was seeing people, you know, five or ten people a day sometimes uh who needed support. And so I didn't call myself a coach at that time. But then when I left the pulpit ministry, I I'm I'm a master teacher. I love teaching and I taught at universities. I still do. I love that, I love that arena. So I keep my toes in there. I teach like one class a month or so uh at a university, but I um then started to call myself a coach. It's only been in the last maybe 10 years or so that I've actually could put that label on. And and now, but the beauty is even what I do as hybrid, I always do training and coaching together. So there's always, and what I've done recently, which is so fulfilling, is I looked at all the ways I've learned to listen to my own voice. And every one of them was a course that I took or a path that I took. And so I put them together in a training program. And it's like, ah, this is how I learned to listen. I can teach you. And so I take people through those trainings, but then coach them to make it practical. You know, they can learn the techniques, but then we have to talk about how it affects their life. And so that's become what I do. And the inner compass coach is only a couple of years old, actually, that I've called myself that because I started realizing every single course, that's the thread, the thread. It's teaching you. Um, you know, one of them, one of the modules that I teach, for example, is a journaling program. And it's in the journaling program where it's not just recording what's going on in your life, but it's literally having dialogues with your work, with your body, with people in your life, with circumstances. It's a very unique program. I didn't create it, but you know, I borrow from everybody. I'm good at synthesizing. And what it did for me, it was like suddenly these pieces that looked like they had no connection suddenly had a connection. And my life is speaking to me. And I recognize that. And so as I teach that, the person who thinks their life doesn't fit says, Oh my gosh, here's the meaning I had behind every one of these things. This does have a flow. This does fit. This is why that happened. And it becomes such a healing and and puts together a life that says, ah, my life doesn't make sense. You know, and then the question we ask in the journaling is, what does my life wish to become? Again, a midlife question. You know, absolutely. What does my life wish to become? All right, I've done this so far, and now what? Who am I? What am I heading towards? So and that program alone is is worth taking.

Um how important is it in that circumstance where you're where you are um wondering how you know what does my life wish to become? How important is that to be uh have the knowledge of your Enneagram, for example, or an astrological chart in my um from my perspective? When you're journaling and you're thinking about how say the phrase again, how I wish to become. What does my life wish to become? How important is it to have the knowledge of that sort of thing, the Enneagram, so that you're not thinking about wishing to become something that that is fitting into someone else's idea.

You know, I think it it always helps. Like I remember I've studied, I haven't studied astrology deeply, but I've known about it in numerology and a couple of other things that I can put together. But I find that just doing the journaling work, you almost don't need to know it. You start, you can actually see your type or your astrological part because of like, oh, look what happened. And when you start recognizing that there are no accidents in life, you know, so many people think that they're victims of their life and that happened, that shouldn't be, that shouldn't have happened. And when I look at it from the perspective and the journaling technique that we teach is based on a man named Ira Progoff called the Intensive Journal. I don't teach his program because I'm not certified by them, but I learned from him and I take it from there. Um when you begin, for example, just recording, you start out, and I can give your listeners an exercise. They can do this if they want. Okay. Just list the 10 most important stepping stones

Journaling That Reveals Life Patterns

of your life. Everybody starts with, I was born. You get that, number one. Say what's been significant. It could be a place you've lived, it could be a person, it could be a work that you did during the time, it could be the birth of a child. Some people leave out their children when they write it. It always fascinates me. But it's interesting just to see what shows up. And every time I've been away from my journal, I start there again because that list looks different every time I write it. Right. Yeah. And so that's an exercise just to start there. And then you take every one of the segments, and in the course, we only let you do one because we would be at it for a lifetime, and say, what area of my life wants to speak to me right now? So, for example, for years I had that I was in a convent, I never looked at that. It was gone, it was away. It wasn't until I pulled out this whole inner compass thing that all of a sudden happened that I went, oh my God, what did I learn during those years? And I went back and journaled. And when you journal on each section, you look at who were the people, what were the decisions you made, what was your body like during that time. You do a complete analysis without judgment. And that takes a while, but it's powerful. And then it says, okay, I listed all that. Oh, I forgot about this person. They were very significant. So you go and do another section of the journal that lets you dialogue with that person, whether they're living or dead. You have a conversation with them. So the process takes you in so many different directions. And all of it is your internal speaking. It's like you, your wisdom comes through everybody, no matter whether, and you do it in the silence in your writing, so nobody's reading your writing. You don't have to worry about how it sounds. And I have never had a person say that wasn't useful. It's like, oh my God, look at the wisdom in me and what you get from there. And then we take you through what we call guidance, the your um, your inner guidance people. And for some people, it's Jesus or Mary or Buddha, but for some people is their grandmother or some figure that has been important, and you have a dialogue with them and you ask them your deepest questions. It's powerful stuff. And that work alone, um, I know I just finished with a cohort and I asked them, which was the major piece, and they said that journaling part was something they'll continue. And it was like, whoa, I do have wisdom within me. I can trust my own wisdom. And and these pieces that look like they had no connection are all connected.

It's very powerful. It sounds it's true. Yeah. And so when if someone does this journaling process over a period of time and they are asking, who do I wish to become?

That sort of comes out of that process, it comes out of it because you start seeing, for example, we do at one section, roads taken and not taken. And the whole idea behind that is that you made a decision, you married A and you B was there, you didn't marry B. What would have happened if you did? And I'm not saying you therefore should divorce the first person, but it takes you down a road of saying, you know, okay, I decided to go, I had a choice when I was in computers. I wrote for a magazine at one point, long crazy story. And it was called the Information Center magazine. I knew nothing about information centers, but I was a great interviewer. So I went around and interviewed heads of information centers, and I would write their story every month in this magazine. I was offered a job as the head of an information center for a major bank in New York in the 80s for $120,000. Wow. Now that's a what would have happened if I took that. And what does that say about me and my choices and what's still available from that? It's very interesting. And part of what's happened to me is that I'm doing a lot of public speaking now. I'm looking at venues where I can speak, and and I'm realizing I can speak at technical conferences because I know how to talk to that audience. And they really need to understand their inner compass because they're very rural and regimented. And so they could learn this. So isn't that interesting? That from that piece is showing me something that I can use now. I didn't know that until I journaled. See what I'm saying? Yes. And so it gives you insights, it gives you ideas, and you know, it's pretty amazing what what shows up from that.

So from that, the because you've got um a a course that you take uh people through for the journaling specifically. Um from that, we get to say that we get to the end of the process, then we've had this, you know, who do I who wants what do I want to become? Then there needs to be some kind of action, doesn't there?

Well, part of what what I do is um in in my process, it's a six-month process I take people to, and I'm thinking I should expand it to a year because it really needs the time. But I have several different programs, and one of them after that, we work on our shadow. We work on what's blocking us, what's been preventing us, what are the beliefs that I have, where do they come from? What my childhood told me I should or shouldn't be or do. So we work on that. And then the final program we do in the six months is a visioning course, which says really, how do I listen to what's really being called for my life next? So I take people through six months, different programs that each add a piece. You know, beginning we just look at what is your fear, then we look at how do I listen to guidance, then we look at our life, then we look at the shadow, and then we look at the visioning process. So it's um those are all separate courses I took over the years and learned how to teach. And so it's like I never saw them all coming together. And suddenly one night when I was trying to figure out where my business needed to go next, I went, Oh my God, every one of these courses makes sense. If you take them in a row, imagine what would happen. And that's how I put together my program, which was pretty much my life told me what my life needed to become. You know, so you know, I get to live what I teach.

Yeah, that's so cool. Can you talk about um that first pillar, fear? About you know, how to

Fear As A Message

overcome fear or understanding where it comes from, what it is.

Well, you know, I always say to people, fear is not something we need to fight. It's a message that's trying to speak to us. So when you when you look at fear as how do I get rid of this? What do I do? You know, the Course in Miracles teaches what you resist. Persists and it's only going to get worse. So it's like fear is trying to say something, it's trying to teach me something. What is it? What is the message? So I used to do this with anger because lots of people I worked with had a lot of anger. And now I work a lot with fear. And so have a conversation with fear. Fear, what do you want? What are you trying to teach me? What are you trying to tell me? And again, if you know your Anneagram type, each anneagram type has a different way of looking at fear. Right. We have a different fear for every single type. So you can look at it from the type point of view, or you can simply, you know, I'm I'm afraid of being alone. I'm afraid that nobody else is going to be there for me. I'm afraid of whatever, whatever shows up for people. And one of the processes I do is a, again, I was taught this by my spiritual director at the time. She called it fear to faith. And it's like, what's the worst thing you think is about to happen? What do you want to be happening? And what do you do when you're afraid it's going to happen? That's the process I take people through. And, you know, it's a couple of hours process that we go through and look at that. And then I literally teach a somatic process where you let go and you move your arms in a certain way to release those fears. And when you do that for seven days, it absolutely changes what you're afraid of. It's just been amazing to me. Well, again, what happens? Um, I've had experiences of um, I had one many years ago, an experience where I was taught teaching at a university and I did something stupid. I think I took a book out of the library without signing it out or did something stupid. I don't remember what it was. And and now my boss at the time called me out in front of everyone and basically told me that if I ever did this again, I'd be fired. I mean, it was humiliating, wow, awful. So I went back and I did this fear process because it brought up a lot of fear, and I realized that I this is gonna sound really strange, but I thought, and this comes from the convent, if you punish me, that's good, because then I'm gonna grow. So I need to be punished. Now that's a weird, a weird thing to discover, and so I released my belief in punishment. I I released my need to be be yelled at, and I accepted instead the recognition I deserve that you know who I am is whole and complete. And I did that, you do the exercise 70 times a day for seven days. So right after that happened, I went and I did that exercise. The next week, when I went to school, I was voted teacher of the year. I mean, transformation. It was, and that never happened again. I never had anybody call me out because I really got in touch with this deep belief that I was supposed to be punished, you know. And it was like, you know, and and that goes back to my childhood and the way I was raised, and you know, all of that, that we become aware of through these processes. You know, you don't even think about it. I didn't think it had any significance until that happened. The same thing happens with the the shadow process that I do. It's based on looking at what you're triggered in. If something's triggering you, it's not about what's happening. It's never about what's happening, it's about what you believe about yourself based on something somebody said when you were three, you know, and when you can get in touch with that, you can change that. We can change our neuropathways. And so we teach people how to actually make those changes and amazing, amazing life. I've been through a lot, you can tell. Yes, and I I am so grateful for all of these processes that I've learned over the years. And I used to think I wasn't creative because I was using everybody else's work, but I you know, I did create I created my own course that your people might like, and it's on aging and dying, yes, which is one of the biggest fears, I think. Yes, when you hit midlife that starts to strike, you know, and um I did write that course on my own, having been through my own experience of it, you know.

Would you like to talk about that or should we talk more about the inner compass work? I think they're both quite relevant actually.

The the the work with that is kind of an extension of the inner compass work because it's part of the fear, but the inner compass work is really where my heart is at right now because and especially in midlife, I think it's the more important topic for people to look at. And you know, just I'll name those five pieces again, and people can do this on their own, or I don't know if they can do it on their own. Who am I kidding?

Well, you have on your you have on your website each of the sections, don't you? So can you do uh each of those sections individually if there's one that particularly stands out? I know you recommend to do recognition.

I'll just mention I just said the fear to faith one. The fear to faith is it's just a two-week process. We actually teach the process, people do it for a week and they come back and report on what's going on. It's always kind of a miracle with that. The second course is on spirit guides. And I talk about uh, and I we haven't

Guidance Voices And The Barking Dog

talked about that much, but and that was like brand new to me after I left the Catholic Church because you never talked about that kind of stuff, although the angels and the saints were out there, but that there is just an amazing amount of guidance for us, which is basically our own. I I don't want to get too esoteric, but I believe in non-duality. There is only one. There's life is, you know, I I call God all there all that is, and when I connect with that, I can listen to it. But I'm listening to my own inner knowing in a way. So I teach people, and I'll just tell people about the first step because that's the most fun. We all have a joy guide, and the joy guide wants us to laugh and be happy and to have gifts and things come to us. So the very first week when people come to the class, they're like, I don't know if I believe this stuff, Tani. And I'm like, just play with me. And for a week, let's play with first of all the joy guides. You can name them if you want. You can just, you know, uh, I decided I had two of them. I called one Joy and the other one Jill. I don't know where Joy and Jill. Joy and Jill. And Joy and Jill, when I asked them to, and I usually do this almost every day, find me something to give me joy today. The first time I did it, my sister wrote me an email and said, There's a comedian you should be watching. My sister never talked about a comedian before. I mean, it was just so delightful. And and I watched that comedian and it was hysterical. I was laughing so much. And, you know, sometimes I ask for a gift and something comes up in the mail that day or something happens. And so, and I discover it in class when I do that for an entire week. You got to talk to your joy guides every day and see what happens. And it's so delightful that things that happen. And, you know, then then there are runners. The runners will find things that you're missing. So if you've misplaced something and you want to find it, ask the runner to get it. Or if you want to get deeper and you need to buy a new house, ask the runner to find you the new house or the new job. And and I teach people about that. And there are different kinds of guides. Again, I studied with a woman who teaches all this. She teaches something uh, I'd love to share this because it's so good. Um, she tells us to listen to your inner voice. You got to know the difference between your spirit and your barking dog. So you should name your barking dog. And that's the loud voice that's saying, Why are you doing that? You shouldn't be doing that. What's wrong with you here? We all have it, right? So she's she teaches you to name your barking dog so that when that happens, you can say, All right, I can listen, but I'm not paying attention to you. I want the other voice. And the other voice is quiet and loving, you know. And so I train people to look at the barking dog. We have a lot of fun in that class, but it's teaching you to listen to guidance. And then you start noticing the license plate tells me what I should do, or I see a billboard on the road, and it's exactly the book falls out. When I was a minister running a church, books would fall off a shelf and I'd open it, and there was the message I needed to deliver that Sunday. It happened almost every week. It was just amazing. So, because I got really good at this stuff. I play with it a lot. And it's play, it's fun, you know. What do I believe? I don't know. I don't, you know, I you don't have to worry about whether you believe it or they're entities or angels or wherever, you know. But we look at the angels and the all that kind of stuff, and it's a it's a playful way of getting into listening. And to then check out spirits, like, can I pick up what's the spirit of my cat? I have different cats. Didn't each one has a different spirit. Can I pick up people's spirit? We play a lot in that course. Then we move to the journal course, and I won't say more because I've said a lot about that already. And then the shadow course. Shadow course, we got to wait till people know me well because that's a deep, deep dive into our past

Shadow Work And Visioning Forward

and brings up lots of stuff for people. At part of the it's a six-week course, but part of it is a 21-day process where you do a worksheet every single day on the issues coming up, and that is incredibly powerful. Um, by the end of it, you're really looking at the messages from your childhood. And I'll I'll just give you one of my own that's very powerful. When I was teaching a class and I was feeling like I'm never gonna, I'm just not doing enough. I'm not good enough. Like, where is that coming from? My class loved it, everybody loved it. Why was I feeling that? So I did a worksheet, and what showed up was me as a like kindergartner or little kid bringing home a report card. And when I showed it to my dad, it had nothing less than a 98 on it. My father looked at the report card and said, Why isn't it a hundred? I had a very similar experience. Did you? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So you get it. The message to that little girl was, I'm never gonna be good enough, no matter how I try, and I'm not gonna be recognized. That recognition is a big theme. I wrote a book on recognition, by the way. That's you know, because I didn't get it. And it just so fascinating. And when I went back and I rewrote that story and rewrote my life with a new message, I no longer feel that. Things can go wrong when I'm teaching, things can happen, and I feel good. I'm good enough. It's so amazing. It literally shifted that very deep belief. And when I share it, many people remember their own story. And almost everyone has had one, you know, we're like, you're not smart enough, you're not pretty enough, yeah. All of that. So we go through those things. And and again, I teach people a method that they can use for the rest of their life. It's you know, it's not this is why it's a six-month program, but it can last a lifetime. And then the final one is a product of a man named Michael Beckwith, who um said there's a difference between visualizing and visioning. Visualizing says I'm looking at what I want and I'm picturing it, and that's how you manifest it. You can picture it, see it, you can manifest it. Michael's program says vision is I let go of who I am, what I want, to listen to spirit's guidance and what pictures come in and what what I'm being called to rather than what I think I want. And so it's a visioning process and it's a very, again, another powerful process. And it really is the way I land the program and say, okay, what do where do I want to go from here? And for many people, I want to go back and do all six of them again. Because, you know, but that thank you for letting me share that because that's a very, it's a very powerful six-month program. Um it's almost too much, but it's like when people finish, they like, I have the tools I need now.

I know, yeah, I know what to do. And no doubt it's an ongoing process, isn't it? Like you've said that you're um you're still doing it.

Yeah, absolutely.

There's always growth. There's always growth.

Yeah, and you you pick on pick and choose what works for now. Like sometimes it's the journaling, sometimes it's the you know, the Q process and each of those. Yeah, very powerful.

For um for women in midlife, like this sounds to me very relevant.

Decision Paralysis And Learning Trust

Can you give me some ideas of who you have been working with? What sort what's the person that comes to you? Where are they at in their life? Like, what has been going on where they're like, I need to change, I want to do the work. Like, who is that?

So I describe it in terms of the enneagram as an enneagram six, but I've discovered that more people it's the point six. Um, one of the things I say there's a difference between your type and a point. I just can't make a decision without checking with 12 other people, or without worrying about did I make the right decision, or I gotta think about it. I have many friends who are like, let me think about that. And then they don't do it, they usually procrastinate as a result, or they're constantly looking for who else to trust, putting trust outside themselves. Um, so many of the people who I work with, that's an issue they come with. You know, I had a group this morning, and one of them is an anti-ram six, another one is a nine, but he said, you know, under stress, I become a six. So I'm trying to make a decision, and I can't, I can't let myself do this. He wants to produce films, and he's like, I need to call a director, and I've been too afraid, and so interesting. So, and the other one is like, I'm trying to decide what is my next step in life. Should I go here? Should I do this? Should I, you know, and they they're looking for someone to tell them what to do, and I won't tell anybody what to do. I mean no, the inner compass does that, right?

Exactly.

You know, you don't want my wisdom, you don't want my advice, you want to hear your own yeah, so it's learning how to so the person that I best serve is the one who's questioning the people who are super confident and listen to themselves, they don't need me. You know, it could go to another coach, I think. But the the people I serve best are, and they're usually um the most courageous and loyal people. That's the other thing. When they trust you, one of the challenges I have is getting people to trust, because that's their issue. You know, I don't trust. I don't trust myself, I don't trust anybody else. Who should I trust? And so before they're going to work with me, they better trust, they've got to trust me. And hopefully that's partly why I speak at different places and do podcasts. It's like, all right, hopefully you've heard enough now you can trust where I'm coming from. Um, maybe, you know, and so we can go from there. And that literally is why I'm doing these things, because I'm I'm trying to let people know who I am. This is this is it, you get to see it. And if this is comfortable for you, I probably can be the one to help you, you know. And so um that's the best way. I find if people know the NABRAM, the sixes and the nines are the ones gravitating towards me. Oh, although every other type, and especially when you're dealing with midlife, you're dealing with some of that issue. It's like, oh, I'm not sure right now. I've had it clear, it was all clear before, and now it's not clear. So it you know, that's why I'm calling it the point six in all of us. It's that that part. You don't need to come to me and know how to play more, you know. I can teach you that, but that's that's my seven point how to have more joy in your life, you know. But um, but because I come with that energy, it shifts the energy of the sixes as well. So I I think we transmit energy to each other all the time. Yeah.

So we don't want to put anyone off by saying that if you're a one, a two, or a three, et cetera, et cetera, that you're not welcome. But exactly. Everybody's the it's the vibe of the six, like when you're uncertain, you need direction. Yeah.

Yeah. That's the one. And in the book, like when I do workshops every month and I give away one of my books called The Courage to Trust Yourself. Okay. And in that book, I talk about each type's difficulty with trust, you know, and they're different. I mean, the six is kind of the poster child for it, but everybody else can relate.

So yeah, sounds great. Before we close, um, I would just love to know because obviously you've mentioned that you're 80,

Purposeful Ageing And Staying Curious

you've been doing this work for a long time, you've got a lot of wisdom to share. But many people, and I don't think you're one of those people. Well, you're obviously not, and I'm not one of those people either. But I think that you know, we have a there can be an uh picture of what someone in their 80s should be doing, or what their life should look like, and you're out there working, coaching, you know, what's can you tell just tell us a little bit about why you're doing things the way that you're doing them? Like my sense is that you've got that rebel energy about you.

Yeah, you do have that rebel. I I want to say to you, I cannot not is the way I'm I'm gonna describe it. It's like I can't, I can't even imagine playing golf every day or doing something. I mean, I I this is how I learn by sharing it. And I get so much myself by sharing this. And and the other piece, we mentioned that I'm not in a relationship. I don't have children, I don't have a family. This becomes my family in many ways. This is my community. I I gather communities around me and and love working as part of those communities. So I get fed as much as anyone else. Like many of my friends who are married and have five grandchildren, they spend their life with their grandkids, and that's their life. And and I honor that. We each have a different life, but I know for me it's um I can't imagine not doing this till the day I die. I mean, truly, it's like people like, why do you keep doing this? And because I can.

Yeah, exactly. And I love I just love that. It's just rewriting the story of what society expects of different, you know, different people at different age groups.

Exactly. And and they kind of think like I'm really into AI lately, and my friends think crazy, but it's like fascinating to me what you can do and what you can create. And actually, AI helped me create my life story in a book. So just amazing what you can create and do with people. And it's uh, and part of it is my seven. Sevens are never satisfied, we're always wanting to learn more. And I'm a lifelong learner, but I also believe that it's what keeps my energy alive. And I think that people who are depressed, um, they're depressed because they don't have a purpose. They don't, they're not giving, they're not out there doing something. And when they can find what gives them joy and gives them life, you know, it changes everything. You know, you can't be depressed and be doing this kind of work. It's just uh amazing. It's uh yeah. So I just encourage people, not necessarily that they have to work forever, because everyone's called to something different, and that's I really honor people's process, but I want people to really look at that process and not default to it. Not, you know, I'm doing this because this is what is expected of me at this time. But what are you being called to? What's you know, what's what does your life wish to become? I keep asking that question today, yeah, but it's an important one and love it.

Thank you so much, Tony, for joining me. It's been such a great conversation, and um really appreciate

Workshops Websites And Final Goodbye

your wisdom. Um yeah, we're gonna direct people to your website. Um, you do a free workshop every Friday. So as soon as this every first Friday. So whenever this podcast is released, listeners can find you on the first Friday of the following month, probably, wherever that that falls.

And exactly. And probably the simplest thing is I have two websites, but the one is called Path Paths to Transformation. Okay. So they can do that. But then there's lots of stuff that's where they'll find my books and my courses and speaking, and uh there's lots of good information on there. And um, it takes you. The other website is just my name, TonyLamotta.com. That has all the different courses and things that I teach as well. But the paths to transformation will give us the directing just to come to that workshop so they can get a free workshop and get a taste of what it's like to listen to Trust Yourself.

Brilliant. Thank you so much for joining me, Tony. It's been great to meet you. Thank you. Same here. Delightful. Hey there, Rebel. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Midlife Rebel Podcast. If you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a coffee by going to Buy MeACoffee forward slash Midlife Rebel Podcast. Thanks for listening.